On Aug 28, 11:29=A0am, "Michele" <nospammiar...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> "Jerry Kraus" <jkraus_1...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ha scritto nel
messaggionews:ce68f5=
18-2ed2-4624-869f-1640c7ffc595@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Aug 28, 2:25 am, "Michele" <nospammiar...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > Well, we seem to agree, in any case, that Franco didn't join Hitler,
>
> and remained neutral during the second world war, because it was quite
> obvious that he would immediately be in very deep trouble militarily.
> Unlike Mussolini and Hitler. =A0It wasn't that Franco knew that Hitler
> would lose.
>
> A superficial analysis.
>
> Yes, Franco *****sed that he would be in trouble. But it was not all
that
> obvious then. Yes, yes, it was obvious that _if_ the British would
contin=
ue
> to fight, they would stop his foodstuffs, they might take the Canarias,
e=
tc.
> As I agreed with the other posters. But your oversight is to assume
> everybody knew the British would continue to fight.
>
> _That_ wasn't obvious. _If_ the British gave up, then being short on
> everything wouldn't be a problem, the war would soon be over, and by
jump=
ing
> in at the last minute Franco would be the one who took Gibraltar back.
>
> Franco did _not_ make that mistake. I.e., as others have pointed out
too,=
he
> wasn't just lucky, he was smart. BTW, that he was smart, or cunning, or
> clever isn't just my opinion or other posters' opinion; plenty of
histori=
ans
> tell us that his contem****aries judged him that way.
>
> Could that mistake be made? Yes. Mussolini made it. Yes, Italy was
better
> prepared for war than Spain, but not all that well prepared, and,
anyway,
> Mussolini's reasoning was exactly the above - he assumed any shortcoming
> would not matter, because Italy's participation in the war would be
short
> and easy. The Germans would win for Italy, the British would quickly
cave
> in.
>
> > It was simply that it was obvious that Spain could not
>
> possibly win.
>
> Which would have been totally irrelevant if _Germany_ had won on behalf
o=
f
> Spain. But you failed to notice that.
>
> > Franco was actually fantastically lucky throughout his political
>
> career.
>
> I see. You don't like him, so if he does well, it must all be luck.
>
> > He was lucky to get sufficient assistance and insufficient
>
> opposition to win the Civil War --
>
> Actually foreign assistance was rather secondary. It was nice to have,
bu=
t
> not decisive.
>
> > Stalin could probably have crushed
>
> him, if he had wanted to, most Spaniards were left-leaning.
>
> Were they? Do we have your word for it? You base that on the Spaniards
yo=
u
> know?
> It must be shocking news for you that in 1933, just two years after the
> proclamation of the Republic, the first free elections of it saw a
victor=
y
> of the right. Yes, right, the right.
> Then in 1936, the left won. By a very narrow margin.
> The Spaniards were almost exactly cut in half when it came to political
> leaning. Not that it would have mattered for Stalin, of course, his
metho=
ds
> did not rely on majority decisions.
>
> > He was
>
> lucky that Spain was in such a weak position during the second world
> war that he had no incentive to join in, and that Hitler would
> therefore tolerate his neutrality.
>
> See above. An easy mistake - so easy it was made by Mussolini - would
hav=
e
> been to judge, along with nearly everyone else at some time during the
wa=
r,
> that Germany would win single-handedly. Antonescu's Romania was nearly
as
> weakened as Spain, having lost more than a third of its territory
togethe=
r
> with the relative manpower pools, yet Antonescu made the same mistake as
> Mussolini.
> Franco did not. That's more than luck.
>
> > He was extremely lucky that the
>
> Cold War with Stalin started up after the second world war, for
> otherwise, he would certainly have been isolated and probably removed
> from power, as a fascist.
>
> I doubt he would have been removed from power. In any case, sure, that
wa=
s
> his luck, but in that, he was far from extraordinary or extreme. The
West
> was friendly with a long long list of right-wing strongmen for decades;
h=
e
> was in good company.
>
> > He was lucky that the Spanish were willing
>
> to let him live out his life as a dictator, contenting themselves with
> assassinating the Admiral who was positioning himself to continue the
> dictator****p toward the end of his life.
>
> Again that rubbish. That's childish. You have already been told that it
i=
s
> preposterous to mix up "the Spanish" as a whole with the extremely small
> number of terrorists who carried out that stunt. =A0By the same token,
yo=
u
> could say that Jacqueline was lucky that the Americans let her live as a
> widow, contenting themselves with assassinating her husband. It would be
> just as sensible. Keep ignoring that, and I'll keep reminding you.- Hide
=
quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm just curious Michele. Would you describe yourself as an actual
Fascist, politically, or merely a right-leaning Fascist apologist? I
think it's a significant distinction.
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