On Jul 7, 9:30 am, David Hume <chazwy...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Jul 7, 1:49 pm,jgarbuz<jgar...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>
> > > 1) Before 1948 there had been no Jewish state in the region since
> > > before the time of emperor Hadrian, and then only a client state of
> > > the Roman Empire.<
>
> > True. That doesn't mean it ceased to be Jewish land.
>
> Sadly the same can be said of Palestinians who have bee dispossessed.<
Same is true of the Jews of Arabia who founded Medina (Yathrib) and
were dispossessed by Muhammad.They come from Judea some 500 years
before Muhammad was born, but that did not stop him from dispossessing
and kicking them out (after beheading hundreds). Nonetheless, even
though Jews lived and farmed that part of the Hijaz for at least 5
centuries before Muhammad, I will nonetheless concede it as being Arab
land and not Jewish land. Can Arabs do the same and concede Israel as
being Jewish land?
> Many tribal lands
>
> > are conquered by large empires, but have gotten their independence
> > since.
>
> And far more have not.<
Which have not? Oh yeah, Kurdistan which is still under the control of
two Arab, one Turkish and one Iranian country.
Yes there are many people who do not have their own independent state,
Including the Lakota Indians, who recently seceded from the United
States to the notice of NOBODY else in the country :)
> The major difference between the Jewish case and that of most
> > other small conquered peoples, is that the Jews went into exile but
> > managed to preserve their identity and never gave up their claim to
> > their homeland,<
> And neither have the American Indians or Maori - to name but two.<
And I fully sup****t them. In the US I have understood since childhood
that I am living on Indian land. I cannot speak for New Zealanders
about how they feel occupyng Maori lands. But if the INdians come to
power and take back the country, I won't take up arms against them.
My country may be America, but my homeland is Israel, and I never
confuse the two. America is the homeland of its indigenous peoples,
and everyone else is either the descendent of settlers, or a recent
settler himself.
> and indeed enshrined it as the second major part of
> > its tribal religion. Also, thanks to the Jewish legal system, they
> > managed to even prosper in exile in many cases. But with most other
> > cases, the locals were either assimilated or killed off or both. In
> > America, the remnants of many native "Indian" nations languish in
> > miniscule parts of their ancient land we call "reservations" and some
> > only prosper slightly due to gambling and no cigarette taxes.
>
> > > 2) The Jews had originally stolen the land from the indigenous
> > > inhabitants after their trek from Egypt.<
>
> > The Canaanites, who preceded the Hebrews by some 1,000 years, had
> > destroyed the earlier inhabitants before them. They too were not
> > indigenous.
>
> So tel me does that justify that Palestine is a Jewish "tribal land" -
> I think not.<
Many recent archaeologists now believe that the Hebrews were mostly
Canaanites who came to believe in this new religion, just as Mormons
came to believe what they believe, and wrote their own holy book.
Hebrew is the only extant Canaanite language. Perhaps Abraham garnered
a lot of Canaanite followers?
> To me "indigenous" means the FIRST or EARLIEST people who
> > had inhabited the land. Neither the Canaanites, Hebrews nor Arabs fit
> > that bill. And the Canaanites were a collection of city states often
> > warring with each other, and often under Egyptian or Hittite rule. In
> > fact, Abraham bought his burial lands from Hittites.
> > But the Canaanites practiced infanticide, a fact that was confirmed by
> > archaeology both in Israel, and especially in Carthage (North Africa)
> > where many of the Canaanites fled to create that powerful ancient city
> > state.
>
> > > 3) After the fall of the Ottoman Empire WW1 the British held the
> > > "mandate" over Palestine, <
>
> > The British defeated the Ottomans, who had aligned themselves with the
> > German and Austro-HUmgarian empires, and as such, Britain had the
> > right to do as it wished with the conquered lands of the Ottoman
> > empire.
>
> Then why did the Jews not respect that right and upset the
> negotiations by taking the law into their own hands?<
They didn't. Read the Feisal-Weizmann agreement January 3, 1919. They
agreed to sup****t each other's claims at the Paris Peace Conference.
Learn some real history for a change.
>
> But the League of Nations was created in 1919, and it was
> > decided to return the land to the Jewish people while giving non-Jews
> > full civic and religious rights in what was intended to become the
> > Jewish National Home.
> The League of Nations had no Internationally recognized legal right to
> do that, as it excluded from its number all the opposing interests in
> this matter.<
That's like saying the UN had no internationally recognized legal
rights because when it was formed in 1945, most states were still
under colonial rule. In any case, prior to the creation of the League
of Nations, the only law was might makes right: You conquered it, you
owned it. The League decided who got their own independent countries,
and who didn't. The Kurds, for example, didn't. Eventually, the Arabs
got 21 countries. And if they had only gotten one huge country, say a
Caliphate, they then would have had only one vote in the League or the
UN.
> The Mandate to administer Palestine was given to
> > Britain, for the purpose of helping resurrect the Jewish homeland.
> Now you are contradicting yourself (above).<
Where and how am I contradicting myself?
> But
>
> > immediately upon this, eastern Palestine was turned into an Arab
> > state, under the rule of an emir from Mecca, Abdullah, and was renamed
> > Transjordan. So that larger part of Palestine was taken away from
> > Jewish settlement, and given to the Arabs to rule.
>
> > >and with the holocaust in mind was seeking
> > > ways to peacefully establish a homeland for Jews.<
>
> > YOu mean right after WWI, in 1920, the European powers already
> > anticipated the rise of Hitler and the genocide of the Jews of Europe?
> > Arab nonsense. Talk about historical revisionism.
>
> No, you dolt! - I am talking about the Jews throwing away any chance
> of a peacful settlement by taking Israel by force with terrorism. 1948<
Nobody took anything by force. Israel's right as the Jewish homeland
and as a Jewish state was enshrined by the League of Nations and
subsequently, in much smaller form, the Jewish state. The Arabs tried
to FORCE a reversal of these decisions by violence and their defeat
created two refugee problems, the "Palestinian" one, and the Jewish
refugee problem of the 850,000 Jews who subsequently fled or were
forced out of the Arab countries.
> > > However....
> > > 4) A Jewish terrorist organisation took the law into its own hands
an=
d
> > > seized the land from the Palestinians, on the eve of the ending of
th=
e
> > > mandate.<
>
> > Total ahistorical bull****.
> I think you owe it to yourself to read the history of this moment, as
> you are sorely confused.<
You're going to teach ME the history of that period? That's
pathetically unfunny.
> Quote wiki:
> After 1945 the United Kingdom became embroiled in an increasingly
> violent conflict with the Jews.[49] In 1947, the British government
> withdrew from commitment to the Mandate of Palestine, stating it was
> unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews.[50]
> The newly-created United Nations approved the UN Partition Plan
> (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) on November 29, 1947,
> dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish.
> Jerusalem was to be designated an international city =96 a corpus
> separatum =96 administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.
> [51] The Jewish community accepted the plan,[52] but the Arab League
> and Arab Higher Committee rejected it.[53]<
So?
> Regardless, the State of Israel was proclaimed on May 14, 1948, one
> day before the expiry of the British Mandate for Palestine.[54],
So?
>
> This shows that Jews disregarded the mandate and the plan for peace
> and took matters into its own hands to impose a Jewish state even
> though Jews only represented 33% of the population, despite massive
> attempts to swamp the land with immigrants to increase it from 11% in
> 1922.<
What a distortion of history. The Arabs rejected the UN's proposal and
the Jews accepted. Then the Arabs attacked the UN authorized Jewish
state. As for "massive attempts to swamp the land with immigrants
since 1922," while I agree that too few Jews took up the challenge,
and many who did returned to Europe due to the poverty and hard****p
and Arab violence they found there. Most later died at the hands of
the Nazis. But, the fact is that between 1918 and 1948, the Arab
population more than doubled thanks to investments, jobs, and health
services provided by the Jewish funded health services that were
opened to Arabs. And since 1948, the Arab population that has remained
in Israel went from some 140,000 to nearly 1.4 million, or grew ten
times in 60 years! Let's look at the facts. Prior to 1948, there were
1.2 million Arabs living west of the Jordan river. Today, more than
that number live inside Israel, and an additional 4 million live in
the West Bank and Gaza. Or, over 5.2 million Arabs live in what was
Mandatory Palestine in 1947. By contrast, some 1 million Jews lived in
the Arab and Muslim countries in 1947. How many Jews still live in the
Arab and other Muslim countries today? Less than 50,000 if you include
Iran. So, in summation, whereas the Arab population of western
Palestine grew 4-5 times, from 1.2M to 5.2M, the Jewish population of
Muslim countries declined from 1 million to less than 50,000, or by
over 95%. So who is guilty of ethnic cleansing? If you gave those
hard facts and figures to a impartial Martian from outer space, he'd
say the Arabs are full of ****, and it's obvious that it's the Jews
who were ethnically cleansed.
> The land was alloted to become the Jewish
>
> > homeland again, but the terrorist Arab leader****p, mainly under the
> > rule of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el Husseini, started a
> > campaign of terror and "resistance" from 1920 onwards, as soon as the
> > League had decided in favor of the Jews.
>
> The League held no legal credibility. Never did.<
Well certainly not to Islamofascists or Neo Nazis. Since 1937 the
Fuehrer and the Mufti created an Arab-Aryan alliance that has been
solid for over 70 years.
> But just before WWII began,
>
> > when Britain decided to reverse its policy, in order to keep oil
> > supplies flowing from Iraq to Haifa, and closed Palestine to Jewish
> > immigration,
>
> Lie: Jewish population rose from 11% to 33% from 1922 to 1945.<
The British White Paper of 1939 limited Jewish immigration to 15,000 a
year for 5 years (total 75,000),. after which the Arabs would be the
ones who would decide whether or not more Jews would be allowed in.
That's when the Irgun went to work on the British. And rightfully so.
It was a blatant violation of the League of Nations Mandate. At that
point, Britain became no longer an administrator of the Mandate, but
an occupier of Jewish soil and so the Jewish resistance eventually
drove out 100,000 British troops by the end of 1947.
>
> only then did some underground Jews start their own
>
> > program of resistance and terror - two decades after the Mufti had
> > already done so.
>
> As Palestine was 89% Arab one would imagine that the Arabs had every
> right to resist British rule<
Legally they had NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER regardless of their percentage.
That's like saying that Italian or Jewish neighborhoods had the right
to bomb Blacks from the South who moved into "their" neighborhoods.
The fact that my Brooklyn neighborhood had been 75% Jewish and 15%
Italian for many decades did not give us the right to vandalize, rob
or kill Blacks coming in from North Carolina. SO these Arabs and
others who were living in that desolate corner of the Ottoman empire
on ancient Jewish lands had NOT A SINGLE RIGHT IN THE WORLD to resist
in any way Jews coming in to resettle their homeland as authorized by
the LoN. Not one inch of privately owned Arab property was ever taken
from anyone UNTIL the Arabs stated the war in late 1947. Once the war
was on, then anything goes in love and war.
>. In fat they had more right to do so than
> the Jews who were still a minority long after 1948. You can't justify
> Jews' terrorism of the 1940s and condemn Arabic terrorism of the 1920
> and 30s<
Oh yes I can. That's like saying, you can't set fires to stop
wildfires in the forest. Ask a firefighter if that is true. You stop
forest fires by starting small manageable fires to burn off areas so
that the large fire can't feed off of it. If water doesn't work, then
you have to fight fire with fire. JEws did everything legally by the
book.But when that failed and there was no other recourse, finally
some turned to using the methods they learned from the Arabs, who
always resort to violence first. WIth the Arabs it's the opposite.
When all violence fails, finally they turn to HUDNAS or ceasefires.
After three or four failed wars against Israel, Sadat finally came to
the conclusion that recognizing ISrael and making peace was the only
way EGypt was ever going to get some land back.
>
> > > 5) In parallel with so-called "scholars" in South Africa who once
> > > insisted that the whiteman was there before the Bantu, similarly,
> > > Jewish "scholars" try to tell similar stories to justify the Jewish
> > > "right" over the lands of Palestine. We should pay no more attention
> > > to them than is deserved by holocaust deniers.<
>
> > There is zero evidence of any caucasian settlement or control of South
> > Africa before the Dutch arrived.
>
> Yes, but the "scholars" of apartheid claimed that there were no blacks
> there either.<
Perhaps there weren't I don't know. I'm not an expert in the
anthropology or history of southern Africa.
I do know Israel, however.
> By contrast, there is not a shred of
> > Arabic to be found in the Land of Israel prior to the Arab conquests
> > of the 7th century. There is an enormous amount of evidence of Hebrew
> > and Jewish presence long before Muhammad was even born.
>
> I have to say - so ****ing what! The progenitors of Moslims were there
> before Mohammed, just as the Caananites were there before the Jews.
> The entire claim of the Jews is based on a fantasy of a land promised
> by a fantasy being.<
Not my claim. I base it on the legal ruling of the League of Nations
Council ratified at the San Remo Conferences of 1920 and 1922. If
there is also some God who gave it to us in ancient times, that's a
bonus. The Japanese claim they descended from some Sun god I think.
Who knows, who cares? Israel is Jewish land, not Arab land, end of
story.
>
> > > 6) Until these simple facts are recognised there will be no peace in
> > > the ME.<
>
> > Until 56 Muslim states, and the world at large, fully recognizes and
> > respects Jewish rights to ancient Jewish lands, there will be no peace
> > in the ME.
>
> This will never happen as too much blood has been split. When the US
> fades as a world power the Jewish state will fall to the Arabs once
> again.
> I give them 100 years max.<
The last great Islamofascist hope, that if America falls, Israel
naturally falls with it :) HA! Rome fell. The Arab Empire and the
Ottoman empires fell. And they were around a lot longer than America.
But the Jewish nation is still here. And it has other allies besides
America. India also has a problem with Islamofascist terrorists, and
its ties to Israel are growing as a result. China too is on the rise,
and loves Israeli technology too. Don't hold your breath, or tell your
grandchildren to either. Israel will go when the whole planet goes.
Not one day sooner.
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